Judas, the Son

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Your computer makes them at a rate of one billion per second. Given an input I, proceed down path A or B depending on whether I is 'on' or 'off'.

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When potential repercussions of an impending action are considered as one of the inputs, the ultimate decision is affected by such considerations. And yet note, we're talking about 'consequences'. CWFlink: While that doesn't do much to indicate the validity of free will, I'm afraid I don't exactly have a fitting retort--other than that, if I took your advice to heart and clammed up, that would still have simply been a response to events and situations beyond my control.

So why bother betwixt one path or another? Evidently, my mind works in such a way that I enjoy poking interesting ideas ad infinitum, and I'm persistent enough that when the pointless of my poking is pointed out to me, I acknowledge the point but keep on poking regardless. PE- Should I take this to mean that you don't see any difference between human activity influenced by free will vs that governed by determinism?

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Are you saying that they are one and the same? I am, apparently, not understanding. Please to enlighten.

Recovering Conversely, Determinism fails of insufficient proof at the same time. No its proof that people can resist biological impulses and do things that are unnatural like enduring extreme heat or cold or sticking pins in themselves. That does not prove free will, it proves something different. And the soldier that jumped onto the grenade to save his friends was doing something against human nature that went against his own personal survival instincts. It seems to take more will power to do that than to sit in a lounge chair drinking gin.

You have twin 10 year old boys and take them to a corn maze; they run ahead and disappear in 2 directions. No need to flog Occam with the quantum mechanics.

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I do not understand how 'free will' can be meaningfully understood by way of the scientific method, exclusively. Please argue, sans logical fallacies, with citations Mar 04, Like most things I have read this is hardly "Law" It's implications on the otherhand are quite heavy. These findings validate the fact that we are only animals and are mostly maximizing our survival. Stochasticism exists amongst people or else "mental illness" and other asymptotic anomolies wouldn't exist. Caliban, Should I take this to mean that you don't see any difference between human activity influenced by free will vs that governed by determinism?


The Illusion of Free Will

What I mean is that everything even quantum mechanics is deterministic, even though our knowledge of exact state is fundamentally constrained by instrument noise and precision, as well as inability to sample the entire relevant volume of the universe instantaneously. We don't and in practice, really can't know all the preconditions of any given complex system, and so we can't make exact predictions of its next state. This stochastic perception of the world isn't a reflection of the world's true nature; it's merely a reflection of our limitations as observers.

Fundamentally, the universe is stateful and deterministic, i.

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Either that, or it would have to be purely chaotic, which it obviously isn't. Biology really isn't the field that would equip someone to contemplate the empirical nature of free will. PE, I see. It's Newton's "Clockwork Universe". Free Will is illusory. Our present understanding of the fabric of reality fits almost too well into the world view given thousands of years ago through the people of Isreal and Jesus Christ. While one might think that God would create a universe where you must seek God first to find Him and where there is no indication of the mechanism of His interaction with the world, it seems if we seek the fundamental nature of the universe, even in a secular way, His signature is there.

At the very smallest levels it seems we see arrows to the biggest truth about which our life centers and without which our lives will be wasted. Does freewill exist? Sure, by my personal definition. Now explain exactly what you mean by "freewill". Therein is the rub. We all "know" what we mean by "freewill" whatever "it" is much as we do by the word "spirit" , but I suspect that many of us are talking about something very different to everyone else. Lets clear some things up. Free will is Control. Do we surround the universe or does the universe surround control us?

Clearly, the cosmos win. Free will is caveman logic much like the concept of hope. Nothing comes from nothing is rather an interesting concept when it comes to free will because we know that when we make a decision that decision is based on something. In fact it is that something your value that determines your decision, not the other way around. In essence, we live in a system of control Cashmore neglects the important role of socialization in mammal development and maturation, the effect of which is to temper frank biological determinism. The people who regularly find themselves in trouble with the law certainly are deficient in socialized skills, so perhaps there is some scope for the rehabilitation of offenders, rather than just plain 'punishment', however that is defined.

The 'eye for an eye' thing is a bit out-of-date. So, with rape offenders, for example,wire their genitals up to a distribution board and shock the hell out of them every time they have a sexual thought. LOL Still, people make life choices and while they do so, there must still be a modicum of 'free will', perhaps not as much as some philosophers would like, in the interstices of biological determinism.

Those who went to a prostitute thought they wanted to.

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Those who married thought they wanted to. I wouldn't have done either with a free will. Every decision is a predetermined calculation of "what suits you best".

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Free will is jumping off the bridge when you believe its a bad thing. Suiciders believe its a good thing. Atheists have stated that if God is omniscient, then humans have no free will as God sees all and knows all for all time. A biological argument claiming humans have no free will then contradicts that atheist argument that God cannot exist. The statement is that free will and god cannot exist at the same time. The reason god cannot exist is because christians state that the bible is perfect, but since the bible has self contradiction on the topic of free will it cannot be perfect, thusly, god cannot be perfect and therefore cannot exist as you say he does.

Caliban, Hope is Hopeless Hope is probabilistic. Outcomes can be both unknown in advance from a human perspective and predetermined at the same time from the absolute computational perspective. Hope can push an individual to behaviors and efforts that, when pitted against competing factors, nevertheless yield a desired outcome. The outcome itself may be predestined, but hope can and does sometimes play a vital role, just like all other inputs to a system. Justification implies reasoning; reasoning generates reasons; reasons are the rational inputs that drive your decisions, in conjunction with the subconscious biases.

Your actions are always deterministic, but your justifications may be quite flawed in the eyes of others and even in your own eyes -- particularly if they go against socially mutually agreed upon moral principles. I do have to comment on the statement that "Quantum effects at the electrochemical level create random variations That statement is not definitive, and could adequately be restated as "Quantum effects at the electrochemical level create all variations deterministically in various universes according to the most likely model of the world that we can derive from the best experimental evidence that we have".

About God: God is the system of control - the universe, God is everywhere. If the universe was imperfect then the stability required to sustain anything keep matter intact and life would be impossible. If the universe is perfect then God is perfect view first line. System of control are laws of physics which interestingly are blended with matter God is the determiner, but the conundrum is that god while being in the position of having free will since there is no system of control above God does not have free will because he can only affect every atom or smaller at once Thus praying god is a foolish endeavor.

So whats the closest thing to free will? Determining what is truly in your best interest and sticking by it. Otherwise we will do what we believe is best for us. I've always felt the concept of free will is implausible, since a there is no definition of what the apparently supernatural "will" is, and b simpler hypotheses suffice to explain human behavior.

In this respect it does appear very much like the vitalistic theories in biology, or the quantum-induced consciousness theory of Penrose. Simpler alternative hypotheses exist, with fewer unexplained elements. Why we have this illusion of "free will" stems I believe from the fact that very little of our decision-making processes are subject to conscious evaluation.

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Only for a tiny fraction of our decisions do we perceive the true causes of our actions. Given this lack of self-awareness, it is natural that we view these subconscious decisions as arising spontaneously from a "will". I agree with the author, the strength of this illusion will fade as we get a better understanding of the brain. The most valuable outcome of this type of work in my view would be a reassessment of how our criminal justice system should work.